It's not getting any better

Posted: Fri May 19, 2017 11:12 pm

Great job Scotty. The 900 was just a a dry run for the main event, yer ' Lemon Hundrid'.

Lemme know if I can be of any help, you've got my number.

Looks like it's gonna be a great weekend for futzin' in the garage, what with the weather forecast for both daze being officially 'pissin' down'.

Enjoy.

Cheers...Tony Cool

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 5:37 am

I knew it was too good to be true.

Just the tank and seat ti go.

And this happened

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 5:42 am

The word CUNT comes to mind.

The fuel tap just hit the carbs and after I bolted the tank down I was wheeling the bike out of the garage and pushed down om the tank. Heard something break and saw petrol pissing out.

Bugger me. Oh well probably better to happen here than out on the road

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 5:49 am

Stay there you barstard. Didn't want to ride you anyway.

A mates coming over and we'll go for a ride on the tiddlers.

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 11:01 am

At least you know what it is and it will not be too hard to fix. Hope you are back on the road soon mate!

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:13 pm

G'day mate

Yeah just meed a new fuel tap and maybe move the carbys down a bit if I get time.

How's the new job man?

Posted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:39 pm

It's good to be King 😉 Still in Adelaide, but getting home to Bowral for weekends now. Hopefully in a few months I will be based back in Sydney. I have just started taking my 900F2 apart for another rebuild 😀

Hopefully when you get back on the road We can organise another Sydney F ride.

Cheers,

Chris

Posted: Sat May 27, 2017 6:35 am

Fitted the new fuel tap and took a lap around to the local servo to fill up. Battery died on me at the servo, but a dude had jumper leads and I got home to check the receipt for the not so old battery. Bugger out of warranty by 3 months.

I thought that's cool I can duck down the road and get a new one before the shops close and still be ridding tomorrow. Well that rather large puddle of oil on the garage floor under the bike tells me I shouldn't waste money on a battery just yet.

So that's good news. I didn't waste money on a battery.

Have a good weekend
Scott

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 6:03 pm

It's Monday morning now and after having a bit of a look at it the oil appears to be coming from the base gasket. I guess I will try torque the head down again while it is in the bike as the alternative doesn't excite me that much.

Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 10:56 pm

You have been having a run of shit luck Sad

Hope you get it sorted without too much extra drama.

Cheers,

Chris

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 1:33 am

Fingers crossed it will torque down and stop the oil pissing out. I'm not holding my breath, but it's worth a try.

Somehow I think I'll need to pull the engine out again. I can hardly wait

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 4:53 pm

scottx wrote:

Fingers crossed it will torque down and stop the oil pissing out. I'm not holding my breath, but it's worth a try.

Somehow I think I'll need to pull the engine out again. I can hardly wait

Which thickness of my gasket did you end up using Scotty??

I have found recently (last month) that setting the deck height with a copper base gasket can end up with a leak. I'm flying down to California next week to pull a customers engine and replace the base gasket. I have now found a super hard paper gasket material that comes as thin as .015" and I will try that. I'm sorry for your oil leak seems this is pretty common with copper base gaskets. Who knew?? Pisser

I think Brent knew and is why he O-rings the top of the cases. It's always something

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 6:19 pm

G'day mate.

20'' and this got the pistons level with the top of the barrels. I couldn't go thinner on the base gasket or the pistons would have been sticking out the top a bit.

Anyway I'll get there one day. I have a bit of a step backwards sometimes on this bike, but she'll be cool in the end.

I also boxed up the other engine and dropped it to my mates workshop. I thought 15 months since I pulled it from the bike and I've started back full time at work again last week isn't going to get the engine built at my house any time soon and I want to ride that 1100.

Must remember to tell him "locktite the cam gear bolts"

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:39 pm

Are you guys using any kind of sealer on the copper gaskets? Like Silver paint or that copper gasket spray?

Posted: Mon May 29, 2017 9:50 pm

Copper gasket spray yes. I followed the dirrections on the can.

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 5:09 pm

Shawn_Mc wrote:

Are you guys using any kind of sealer on the copper gaskets? Like Silver paint or that copper gasket spray?

I have been using the Copper coat and let it tack up but it still leaked like a MoFo on Darrins race bike. This was with the top of the cases machined flat and the bottom of the barrels as well.

I just ordered some really hard paper base gaskets to be custom made for me. It comes as thin as .015" and crushes up to 7% Just happens to be perfect for Darrins needs on that engine. I can't have leaking engines. Makes me look bad.

I have seen MANY CB-F bikes with leaking base gaskets and always thought that the owner just didn't do a good job. Now I have learned that copper base gaskets tend to leak more then we would like. Its a catch 22. You either go for the performance and possibly deal with a leak or you use paper and loose the gains but have no leak?? Which way do I go?? Ha

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:25 pm

Copper and hondabond?

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 7:54 pm

Yeah, I used a sealer from a tube on the copper base gasket, the mating surfaces are too small for the copper spray on spooge to work. Also the base gasket doesn't need to handle anywhere near the heat that the head gasket does.

Also should help to make sure the copper is well annealed and as soft as possible.

I used to wonder if an aluminum base gasket would be better for use with a copper head gasket.

CB1100F Joined: Jun 18, 2006 Posts: 2511 Location: UK

On my recent CB1100F (1123 pistons) engine build when i assembled it with the stock 0.5mm base gasket i noticed the pistons were sticking out of the cylinder by about 0.25mm

I obtained a 0.9mm Aluminum base gasket from Neate Racing in the UK to overcome this problem

They recommended i use Threebond 1104 NEO to seal it with, along with using a Wiseco 72mm head gasket as this is what they use in their engines

I started using the bike last weekend and have done 240 miles so far and no leaks

The only Copper spray i have ever used was designed to be a gap filler and heat transfer agent to be used on composite gaskets, which i only ever used on car head gaskets many years ago

Keith

Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 10:57 pm

I remember you mentioning the aluminum "base gasket" Keith. I like that idea. More of a spacer than a gasket really. The Neobond is the gasket in this case (sealer).

Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:47 pm

I'll try the sealer and get to do it next week. Fun stuff. At least it's a race bike and comes apart really quick.

Thanks Jim

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:00 am

Ive used Silver paint, regular paint to seal up a surface that was flat, but didnt get a gasket at all. Worked like a charm. I also used it to seal up a cylinder head on a lawn mower when I was about 10, when I took the head gasket out to raise the compression. That damn thing still runs

The softness of the copper is a real concern. If it's hard, and it doesn't take much work to make it pretty friggin hard, it's not going to seal. All you have to do is heat the gasket with a torch until its red hot. It happens quick. I can almost hear Captain laughing at us with his sweet oring setup and no "gasket" at all.

One thing about copper gaskets, you MUST retorque after a couple heat cycles. That copper is working in the heat. It'll get hard, soften, take a perfect mirror shape to the other parts, but it'll relax. Retorque, it'll pull down a tiny bit, but it seal up. So if youve got a brand new race engine that starts leaking after a couple heat cycles, bust out a wrench. But honestly, after about three, the head will need checked. The super stock BB Chevys we ran got the heads torqued back down all the time. They'd go WFO on a basically cold engine, come in running 250F or more and then cool off to do it again.

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:56 am

What do you reckon about ridding it and taking a bottle of oil with me?

I think if it isn't going to do any damage I may as well do it once before I start chasing this oil leak and having the bike off the road again.

Cheers
Scott

Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:46 pm

Scott,
Try the re-torque. If it still leaks? Then go ahead and ride it. It's just the base gasket and won't do any engine harm. An old race trick on these bikes is to take some old school sweet pants and cut off the elastic waste band. Then take and wrap it around the base of the engine. It will act like a mop and help to contain the oil. We did this on a friends CB-f at Willow Springs this year and it worked like a champ.

Shawn, ya I did the re-torque at the race track but no luck. I don't get it because I used the same setup last year on this same engine and no leaks. One thing I didn't do was to heat up the gasket to soften it up. It's only .015" thick so I don't think that I will be taking a torch to it. I normally just heated them in the oven and then quenched them in a bucket of water.
I'm flying down to LA next week and getting to the bottom of this oil leak. Hopefully I'll also figure out why the Dynoman valves are cupping at an alarming pace?? It's really pissing me off.

I had some really hard paper gaskets made for the base gasket and will give that a go. If I lived near Darrin and this bike that I semi sponsor. I'd try the sealer and annealing the copper gasket. But since I don't, I'm sure that the paper will do the job. I'll try the other route next season when the bike comes back to me for more frame work and larger custom made pistons.

MB-5 Joined: Oct 03, 2016 Posts: 9 Location: sussex, uk

Hiya, the quenching in the water does not help, this is a hardening method.
Its best to let copper cool down in air in its own time, this is annealing, the softening method.

Dicky

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:28 pm

Dicky66 wrote:

Hiya, the quenching in the water does not help, this is a hardening method.
Its best to let copper cool down in air in its own time, this is annealing, the softening method.

Dicky

Yep. Defeating the purpose quenching it.

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:45 pm

I was told years ago (maybe wives tail?) that heating the copper made it expand and that quenching it made it stay in the expanded state. This then would crush back out when you torqued it back down?? Probably BS but it's what I was told as a kid and I did it that way for many years. Then I met Brent and he told me that the copper does NOT crush and that no need to anneal it.
But if it makes it softer like annealing aluminum then I fully see the point.

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:59 pm

The annealing process for various metals is not at all the same. Ferrous metals get hard when quenching, copper does not. There is a lot to read on metallurgical processes on the net.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)

"In the cases of copper, steel, silver, and brass, this process is performed by heating the material (generally until glowing) for a while and then slowly letting it cool to room temperature in still air. Copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air, or quickly by quenching in water, unlike ferrous metals, such as steel, which must be cooled slowly to anneal. In this fashion, the metal is softened and prepared for further work—such as shaping, stamping, or forming." Wikipedia

http://steamshed.com/annealing%20process.html

http://www.wikihow.com/Anneal-Copper

https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/difference-annealing-tempering/

https://www.google.com/search?q=metallurgy+solution+annealing+copper

Also I've read that water quenching copper helps blast off the copper oxide that can form on the surface when heating...

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:18 pm

I may be a new-by on here, but I drag raced KZs for over 20 years. I ran a 1428cc block/GPZ head, 12.5:1 pistons with a 1/4" cut off the head. My cold cranking compression was 335 psi, I used a copper head gasket with an O-ring block. Tore the motor down every winter. Used the same head gasket for years. I would hang the head gasket up with a wire and heat it with a turbo torch. Let it cool in the air, spray both sides with copper coat, let it dry for 1/2 hour, spray another coat on, until I got 3 coats on. I used the big studs, which I torqued at 45 ft/lbs, and never once had a head gasket leak.

Joe p

Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:32 pm

Yeah, that's a good annealing/sealant process for copper gaskets. It needs to get to the point where it just starts to glow...

But Scott's issue is that his base gasket leaks.