My 985 Build Begins! (several updates with pics)

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:45 am

So I guess it's time I started a build thread even though I started tear down a while ago and 'm sure it'll be a while yet before she's making any noise but here we go.
SO I lost a head gasket last summer and already had plans to rebuild the engine starting in the winter anyway. I'm planning on doing quite a bit of modifications but at the same time I'm having to keep the price somewhat reasonable. I'm an engine machinist so I'll be doing all the work myself save a few little things like the oil pickup, I'll just give my money to Headless...
Plan keeps changing or at least growing in what I'm going to do but I'm starting with a 900, 1100 cams that measure pretty good and I had them re-nitrided, stock valves, faced, tipped and also re-nitrided. Port the head and load and loads of mods that may not make power but make it a better bike to ride and own I think.

So I'm starting out with this peach

I bought a separate head in hopes that I would have it built come time to take the engine out but the head gasket failure put all those plans in the trash.
I did however get the old seats cut out of the "new" head ---phone pics...sorry---

Hopefully I'll get some progress done a little quicker than I have been lately. I still have to finish porting a set of Edelbrock SBF Victor heads so I can sell them to fishing building this!!

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:21 am

Is this modified engine wen it`s ready put in to a standard frame or is there a modification also?
This is one to follow for sure,thanks

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:16 am

standard frame at the moment but i've been thinking on how to tie the cyl heads into the frame for some added rigidity.

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:56 am

I look forward to seeing your machine work, ect. top notch I'm sure!

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:51 pm

I went into work today pretty early to get some personal work done... it has to do with the F but in a round about way. I mentioned I'm working on some sbf heads so I can sell them to help fund the 985 project. This morning I got the exhaust bowls and ports on one head rough in. Intakes are already roughed in on both heads.

Intake

A couple more hours to finish roughing in the exhausts, then chamber work and finally all the finishing work...which will probably take a while.

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:11 am

Have you got a Wiseco kit, or are you going with the Cruzin Image set?

Looking forward to the build!

beerchug

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:18 am

Might a lead on a used Wiseco kit, If that doesn't work out it'll be the Cruzin set. I'll hopefully find out which in the next few weeks.

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:08 pm

Your intake ports are done. Should leave them exactly like that. The exhaust you could smooth up a little with a emery roll, but any more is a waste of time.

There's a lot of info regarding intake port texture and how the wall surface affects the flow volume of air/fuel mixtures. Think about the texture of a golf ball. All those little dimples. A smooth intake port seems to knock the fuel out of a vapor and cause droplets for some reason.

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:28 pm

Shawn_Mc wrote:

Your intake ports are done. Should leave them exactly like that. The exhaust you could smooth up a little with a emery roll, but any more is a waste of time.

There's a lot of info regarding intake port texture and how the wall surface affects the flow volume of air/fuel mixtures. Think about the texture of a golf ball. All those little dimples. A smooth intake port seems to knock the fuel out of a vapor and cause droplets for some reason.

I know this and you know this but when it comes to joe blow at the track the way way it "looks" is more important. Since they will be sold they need to "look" nice. Anyway that's my main goal, not best flow I can get out of them but look good and flow good so they will sell quick.

Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:28 am

I'll be running cb1000c/1100F rods in my build. I Got my ARP bolts in the mail today so I can start working on the rods a little bit. I still have to get pistons so I'll have to wait to do some stuff like bush the small end if the piston has a 15mm pin. At any rate I can still clean them up and shot peen them. I'll buy some new bearings and size the big end when I get them.

The bolts I got are almost a direct fit, they are just slightly shorter than stock which I think you can see in the pictures. The pressed fit part of the bolt is perfect size. So I'll be spot facing the rod and cap ends where the bolt and nut seat about .050" on each end. Also re-sizing is a must after adding new bolts.

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:24 pm

cliffiec wrote:

Have you got a Wiseco kit, or are you going with the Cruzin Image set?

Looking forward to the build!

beerchug

So I got my Wiseco pistons from Ben (parting out his 900/ broken cam chain) last week. They look really great! I'll have to bump the pistons through the hone to knock out any burrs left from taking the clips out and I'll polish the pins up a bit.
I think I'll have the pistons coated, probably send them to Swain, we do a decent amount of work with them. They have been doing it for quite a while and always do a good job.
Next things on the list of stuff to do is buy main/rod bearings so I can machine rods as well as polish and shot peen them and bush the small end. Also still need to finish the Ford heads so I can buy stuff for this...been a little unmotiveated to go into work early lately...

Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:45 pm

Started to do a little work on the rods and hopefully get a little more done tomorrow after work. I'm smoothing out the beams in prep for shot-peening. I first take the beam to the narrow belt sander to take the rough spots off then I use several different abrasives to further smooth them out. I'll get some pics of what I'm using but this is the first of it. The first two pics are just off the sander and the second two I just started to use a flap wheel when I had to stop for the day. I left the bolts in there right now just to protect the edges of the rods (you can see where I scuffed them up. When it's all done I'll press in the ARP's and re-size. More to come

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:04 am

Nathan,
I'm about to begin doing the same with my engine ,,, rods and pistons etc
I like the work on the rods!
BTW the oil filter adapter has been shipped ...you'll get it soon.
Ivan

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:51 am

Thanks Ivan! I still have a ton of work to do on the rods I just can't seem to get the time to sit down and work on stuff right now and when I do I have too many different projects that need my attention all at once, but hopefully I can put more attention to the F.

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:46 pm

Can I ask what the plan is with the rods?

I'm pretty new to this sort of thing, but it looks like you are removing material to make them lighter without making them weak. Is that correct?

I'm watching this build. I hope to try some of this stuff myself in the not too distant future.

Thanks. And good luck. Please keep the pics coming.

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:23 pm

Good Job!
Are those the stock 15mm pins....if so think about upgrading to a thicker radial wall?
Did you get the Wiseco pins as well?
This is the achillies heel of the setup from what I read......

Great work on the rods.....polish and shot peen is always worth 30% more strength.

This thread is bookmarked Wink

Jebby

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:36 pm

regarding the pins and rods, is there a reason you cant get a set of new 1100 pins, hone the pistons to fit and use a set of 1100 rods? There's plenty of meat in the piston for it, and it sounds like youve got the tooling too.

Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:08 pm

toronto78 wrote:

Can I ask what the plan is with the rods?

I'm pretty new to this sort of thing, but it looks like you are removing material to make them lighter without making them weak. Is that correct?

I'm watching this build. I hope to try some of this stuff myself in the not too distant future.

Thanks. And good luck. Please keep the pics coming.

Not to make them lighter but to smooth out the flashing for two reasons (as I see it) one is to wick oil away easier, two is to have a surface that the shot peening will blend into, the shot peening is the major thing here. It helps to strengthen the material.

Jebby-- "Are those the stock 15mm pins....if so think about upgrading to a thicker radial wall?
Did you get the Wiseco pins as well?
This is the achillies heel of the setup from what I read...... "

I'm going to call Wiseco to see if they offer a 15mm pin but with a thicker wall. These do seem a little thin, I'm not sure I'd ever really have a problem with them but I'm going to check with them. If they don't offer anything I'll check on custom and if that's too high priced I'll use the ones I have.

Shawn-- "regarding the pins and rods, is there a reason you cant get a set of new 1100 pins, hone the pistons to fit and use a set of 1100 rods? There's plenty of meat in the piston for it, and it sounds like youve got the tooling too."

There is only .045 material between the top of the pin bore and the bottom of the oil ring land so 2mm larger pin would be .040 a side. I'm not sure what Wiseco does with the 1100 pistons, maybe they move the rings up a bit? plus I'd have to put the oil and clip grooves back in it which I really don't want to do. I believe that the 1100 pistons do have more material in the pin towers under the piston than the 900's do if I remember correctly, might be wrong about that though.

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:08 pm

So I have a question that I hope someone can answer or at least some people will give me their opinions on.
Looking at the rods when I took them apart the piston oiler hole in on the intake side of the rod!? This doesn't seem to make any sense to me. I've seen plenty of piston squirters but I've always thought, and still do, that it's best for them to point at the exhaust side of the piston. Maybe they think with the engine sitting at an angle that oil will run down to the exhaust side and oil the whole piston? I don't know...I think I might just flip the rods around on assembly to oil the exhaust unless someone can give me a reason why I shouldn't......

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:15 pm

They point that way (intake side) because it is the thrust side of the bore during down stroke and this keeps the loaded side of the bore oiled, but I'm of the opinion that they are unnecessary unless blown or similar.
I don't use any squirters nor grooves in the rod faces to direct oil up into the piston and I have absolutely no problems at all.

Captain

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:18 pm

Well since they are stock rods and the holes are there Ill be shooting oil somewhere...and even though it may not be necessary now Im wondering if thrust side of bore or hot side of piston would be better. May not matter but still, decisions.

Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:11 pm

nathanhouse wrote:

Well since they are stock rods and the holes are there Ill be shooting oil somewhere...and even though it may not be necessary now Im wondering if thrust side of bore or hot side of piston would be better. May not matter but still, decisions.

The thrust side of the piston will be the hot side. Believe it not, the exhaust/spent gases dont heat the bore and piston all that much.

Look at the bottom of a piston sometime. A correctly jetted engine will have the bottom side of the dome dark brown, with the skirts being basically new unless the engine was run out of oil. The contact points shed heat into the cylinder walls. Most of the heat goes out the exhaust port into the cylinder head, thats why the fins are so big.

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:18 am

Shawn_Mc wrote:

nathanhouse wrote:

Well since they are stock rods and the holes are there Ill be shooting oil somewhere...and even though it may not be necessary now Im wondering if thrust side of bore or hot side of piston would be better. May not matter but still, decisions.

The thrust side of the piston will be the hot side. Believe it not, the exhaust/spent gases dont heat the bore and piston all that much.

Look at the bottom of a piston sometime. A correctly jetted engine will have the bottom side of the dome dark brown, with the skirts being basically new unless the engine was run out of oil. The contact points shed heat into the cylinder walls. Most of the heat goes out the exhaust port into the cylinder head, thats why the fins are so big.

I'll buy that...still wondering why every cup engine I've seen and all the busch and truck engines we built all spray the exhaust side of the piston?...not arguing just saying...

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:31 am

The pin squirters are on the intake side. This is because the engine rotates forward so the oil hole will be up. If it is the other way the oil would spray at the cylinder wall about the gasket surface,not anywhere it needs to spray. It also places the bearing notches on the front side.

I don't like the squirters because when the oil hole in the crank lines up the pressure goes away. The fix is the side cuts such that the oil has already flowed across the loaded side and sprays "up" all the time.

So you take out fine thread good bolts to install bolts too short with coarse threads? 1100 bolts are fine the 900 bolts were weak.

Need some version of pistons with believable size pins not the little dinky Honda dirt bike size ones. 15mm pins are made for 100CC dirt bikes not anything to do with a performance engine. Everyone but Honda got the message and put 17mm pins(or larger) but Honda cheap Charlied out. There is a relation of pin size to bore size and Honda at 64.5mm was right at the jump.

This is a small reason the Kawasaki Z-1 was successful and still is and a whole bunch of people on a web site think they are great. Honda and their typical fragile bottom ends.

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:47 am

sonicrete wrote:

So you take out fine thread good bolts to install bolts too short with coarse threads?

Yup, ARP for what ever reason doesn't seem to like to put metric size threads on their bolts, the shank is 8mm but I'm pretty sure the thread is US fine. I'll have to check with a pitch gauge. Cheap insurance over 30+ year old bolts also it's an exercise to see what can be done, like most modifications on this site.

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:42 pm

Not those ARP. The wave lock bolts are 220,000psi those are no more than plain grade 8 bolts.

8mm is .315",5/16" is .3125". the shank of the bolts is different and this is what centers the cap.

You are worried about old bolts and using a damn weak assed 15mm pin?

After you see 17mm pins break anything less and anything not tool steel is to be avoided. It appears Wiseco is buying weak assed Chineese pins. I have witnessed myself pins breaking. One was at Atco. Engine came up on the 2 step made about 3 hits and broke on the start line. You could see the ground where it cut the cylinder and cases all the way around. The other was a friend on a just assembled set of Wiseco pistons. I asked whether they had used tool steel pins,nope stock Wiseco. My answer was good luck. Broke a short time later.

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:46 pm

I believe tool steel is a bit stiff for anything but racing....
Diamond has a Chrome Moly pin that is not quite as strong as
A tool steel but more forgiving...check out Diamonds/Trends catalog...
Wiseco's china pins are chrome moly....but the radial wall is
thin.....

Jebby

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:45 pm

Don't know about stiff,all I know is the Wiseco pins break. They are heat treated chrome moly and appear to be heat treated wrong.

There has never been a tool steel pin break and I saw two. Old days Wiseco had good pins but it seems lately they really went to shit.

Maybe they are not available in 15mm. I only used 17mm and the little bitty ones stayed in a box. I had some beautiful high compression 15mm pin pistons that I was afraid to use.

I had some engines using 15mm pin explode the rods. The rod remains and small end was still free in the broken piston remains. This was old pins from years ago.

Like I said all of a sudden people started breaking pins and it really makes a mess. Throwing the big end is not that bad but the small end is a buzz saw and cuts it in two.

Was from that point all my engines got tool steel.

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:32 pm

I asked them if they make that pin with a thicker wall but I'm still waiting to here. Also asked what the price on custom pins would be.

Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:59 pm

APE(American Performance Engineering) makes the tool steel pins.