which brand of alternator parts do you use

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:25 am

Hi there

I'm having charging system problems again.

I will get up early tomorrow and start to investigate the cause. I have an old post saved with instructions for testing the stator so I will start with that. I replaced the rotor about 5000km ago (it may be shagged already) I have a Oregon regulator on it.

So if I find the stator to be faulty I think I have a new one in the garage. I hope the regulator is good as it has only been on there for a few months.

If I need to replace the rotor again, have any of you guys had better luck with one brand over the next. Unfortunatly I can't remember which one I put on there but I think it may have come with a rotor removing tool.

Thanks for your input
Scott

CB1100F Joined: Feb 17, 2009 Posts: 2105 Location: Oz

Talk to Small Coil Rewinds in Geelong. They do good work.

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:33 pm

Not likely the regulator Scotty....after market rotors and stators are risky business but maybe in OZ there are more things available than here....along with the super cool colors and rims y'all got compared to ours.....see about a used rotor off of a lower mileage bike....

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:44 pm

ricks cycle electrics? in New Hampshire do good work. I have a brand new unit on the shelf if you are interested.

it should be noted that the stock units when working seem to charge better than the new rewound units. This is likely due to materials and a focus on extending life cycle of the rotors but it is evident when watching psmick's volt meter (get one!) as the stock unit gets to charging around 2-3k and the rewound was 3-4k

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:58 pm

If they short change on wire length to save money that could happen, the magnetic field then is not as strong. A good one overwinds a little bit to really make the magnet work. Or slightly higher at the ohms check.

They ALL seem to be able to put out a good working part, the big problem is making them last. I hear that many don't glue all the way down into the core and could be a big reason for early failure there. The OEM rotor is glued all the way down and last layer glued to the rotor core.

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:18 pm

AMC49 wrote:

If they short change on wire length to save money that could happen, the magnetic field then is not as strong. A good one overwinds a little bit to really make the magnet work. Or slightly higher at the ohms check.

They ALL seem to be able to put out a good working part, the big problem is making them last. I hear that many don't glue all the way down into the core and could be a big reason for early failure there. The OEM rotor is glued all the way down and last layer glued to the rotor core.

+1....If you can buy OEM...that's the way to go....

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:53 pm

If you simply overwind the coil with the same wire, the resistance will go up, and the current will go down. The trick to getting the same performance as stock is to exactly match the gauge, length, winding count, and uniformity of the winding. Change any of those and the magnet strength will change... Making the wire longer to increase the windings lowers the current, to keep the current the same requires increasing the wire size too, and then making it fit in the allotted space quickly becomes an issue. I suspect that the gauge of wire that the rewinders with higher resistance rotors are using is a bit smaller than the stock rotors had, but I haven't been able to verify that.

Many of the rewinds I've measured have been close to or even over 5 ohms, and this resulting 10%+ drop in current should actually make less magnetism than the stock 4.4 ohm one at full continuous battery voltage, even though there are more winds. Less magnetism means less power out of the stator.

The way to improve the magnet strength, IMO, would be to use an edge wound flat wire to get more copper in the coil (like high efficiency speakers), and less air space. You could slightly increase the conductor size, and still make the wire longer and thus wrapped more times and still have it fit, but aim for closer to 3.6 to 4 ohms of resistance, thus making a more current at full regulator feed, and a more powerful magnet, and consequently be able to get more power from the stator.

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:07 am

Testing the after market rotor on my bike I get "open loom" on the multi meter

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:09 am

No worries I'll pull the rotor off the spare engine a mate got for me.

Surprise

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:02 am

Snap!!! The ole empty rotor compartment....surprise for sure!!!!

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:30 am

I have one other engine that I can rob the rotor from until another can be ordered.

It tests at 4.5 ohms so it will work better than the one currently on the sidecar. Can't find my removal tool. Any one know where it is?

CB1100F Joined: May 13, 2005 Posts: 3217 Location: NE OHIO

scottx wrote:

No worries I'll pull the rotor off the spare engine a mate got for me.

Surprise

The clue should have been no wire coming from the cover Smile

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:03 am

The tools next to the cans by the dart board mate!!!

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:53 am

I'll go have a look. I hope your right

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:04 am

scottx wrote:

I have one other engine that I can rob the rotor from until another can be ordered.

It tests at 4.5 ohms so it will work better than the one currently on the sidecar. Can't find my removal tool. Any one know where it is?

Holding on the rear wheel?

Here's mine...

click pic

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:38 am

Thanks man
I remember that now. It will have to do until some barstard finds where my fly wheel tool has been put for safe keeping

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:01 am

Genesound is right about more wire making more resistance, but I was only talking a small bit more. I've wondered about going up on the size slightly too. The one OEM I've stripped used .028" diameter wire including the paint over it.

I'm also toying with an idea of bringing in air at the cover kickout over the inside oil plug to bring air in from higher up, maybe a small pickup box up around headlight, air comes in the cover, swirls around and exits somewhere close to where the wire loom exits and then hose ends under bike where air can draft it. Between a small amount of push up top and suck down at exit one could get some air flow in there yet hose run correct would still not really bring water in. Done right it might not even look that bad.

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:18 am

I pulled the rotor off my other spare engine and put it on the side car.
Charging at 14.4 - 14.5V

Now to fix the slipping clutch

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 8:37 pm

AMC49 wrote:

Genesound is right about more wire making more resistance, but I was only talking a small bit more. I've wondered about going up on the size slightly too. The one OEM I've stripped used .028" diameter wire including the paint over it.

I'm also toying with an idea of bringing in air at the cover kickout over the inside oil plug to bring air in from higher up, maybe a small pickup box up around headlight, air comes in the cover, swirls around and exits somewhere close to where the wire loom exits and then hose ends under bike where air can draft it. Between a small amount of push up top and suck down at exit one could get some air flow in there yet hose run correct would still not really bring water in. Done right it might not even look that bad.

If the current through the wire remains exactly the same, the additional magnetism gained by more windings is a percentage gain according to the number of total windings. It you had 10 windings and added one, you could expect a 10% gain in magnetism.

However, when dealing with a constant voltage source, the current goes down as the resistance goes up. When stacking windings, inside close to the core, the increase in the length of wire would be small compared to the increase in magnetism. However the farther out from the center, the longer each winding becomes, so that after a point the percentage increase in magnetism per wind becomes less than the percentage lost due to the decrease in current caused by the increased resistance, and the constant voltage source. It's all a game of percentages to get the best yield.

I like ducted the cooling idea, I think it would help. I'd also like to see a higher temperature wire insulation coating that fuses together, making the windings into a lump of epoxy like material. I think the real issue with the reliability is the heat and the insulation coating on the magnet wire degrades from the heat until it breaks up and loses adhesion to the wire, allowing the wire to slip around when it's undergoing acceleration. Eventually the windings short together, and in extreme cases metal fatigue causes the windings to come apart. I've heard of rotors being disassembled and the coil inside was like a bird's nest.

Sorry for the thread pollution...

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:00 am

Not me. I should probably pick up an electricians' book.

How many of the rotors you've run across are simply wound without being glued down other than maybe just on the outer surface?

The OEM is glued all the way down to the last wrap. I have looked at the rotor and it seems like it may have been dunked in something, say the coating, and then vacuumed down to pull all the air out thus sucking glue into it??? Or wound with the glue squirting in on the runs while winding. There were absolutely zero air pockets in it.

Another crazy stupid idea but might heat up the parts even more. How to tap in another pair of diodes to tap into the center of the wye on stator for an instant 10% or so charge increase. The problem would be finding the tie together point on stator and adding in the circuit to the rectifier section. These OEM are only half wave alts rather than full wave.

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:26 am

The 6 rectifiers in the R/R are indeed in a full wave bridge configuration.

https://www.google.com/#newwindow=1&q=full+wave+bridge+rectifier+3+phase

The problem with trying to make a fantom Y point is it would be of an incompatible voltage and phase to try to combine with the delta outputs. You really can have one or the other, and the winding criteria are suitable one way or the other.

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:29 am

I tried to understand all that, but no luck.

I changed the new clutch springs back to the old ones and it fixed the slipping clutch.

The alternator is changing at 15V while ridding. I only checked it in the garage last night

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:07 am

Sorry about that...

15v is a bit high for charging voltage.

To attempt to find the cause and lower the voltage a bit, measure between the battery + terminal and the black wire (small connector) at the R/R. It should be real close to 0volts, I suspect you have more like .6volts.

If so, that's probably caused by loose and/or dirty connections somewhere between those points and/or loss in the key switch. To lessen that voltage drop, check the contacts of the black wire (provides voltage sensor and on/off functions) from the R/R to the key switch and make sure all the connectors are quite tight and clean. Also check the tightness of the connectors of the red wire that goes from the solenoid to the key switch. Clean and tighten those and hopefully your charging voltage will come down to closer to 14.5 volts. There is also the possibility that there is loss in the key switch itself. It can be removed and cleaned, but generally I find just exercising it a bit by turning it on and off numerous times will often burnish the contacts inside the switch to make it connect better.

Your new clutch springs were possibly for a different model. They are not the same length or pressure between models and you have to be careful to get compatible ones. If this is an 1100 clutch, I've used Vesrah heavy duty 750 clutch springs in mine successfully, but I think stock 750 springs will slip.

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:16 am

Thanks for the response and trying to help me fix it.

I should get a chance in the morning to start narrowing it down.

The clutch springs I had in there I had ordered with the new clutch plates but I don't have the package they came in so not sure what they suit

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:37 am

Scott while you are at it get yourself a digital voltmeter and mount it somewhere, even in the sidecar and that way you can easily monitor the voltage all the time, that way you can get a bit of warning if the charging is not right. I bought a couple last week on ebay for about $3 each delivered

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:21 pm

This meter is pricey, but the mount is nice looking and beefy. I have one. I don't know about their international shipping...

http://www.mikesxs.net/search.html?q=Charging+system+indicator+Gauge

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:25 pm

I misspoke, you are right genesound, the alts are full wave. I'm getting old and losing my sh-t. However all pics I've seen on these DOHC show the stators to be wound in wye rather than delta, the idea I spoke cannot be used on delta thinking but commonly being used now on wye type stators. The Focus cars now use it and the only difference is 6 diode or 8 diode plate; I have converted them before. A claimed 10% increase in charge output.

http://www.wiringdiagrams21.com/2013/03/04/suzuki-4x4-sj413-alternator-and-charging-system-circuit/

Look at the schematic there, that is one using 8 diodes there. Last sentence there.................'The neutral diodes serve to convert the voltage fluctuation at the neutral point to direct current for increasing the alternator output.' The Focus alts are frequently shown as 110 or 130 amp, the diode count may be the difference there.

Yes the frequency of the wye tap input is 3X more than the phases by themselves but it all works out like this...............

http://www.venselenterprises.com/techtipsfromdick_files/updatingyourripplevoltagetutorial.pdf

See page 3 and the resulting waveforms.

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:08 pm

I have put volt meters on a few bikes now.

The sidecar has a small car battery the volt meter/12V socket is wired straight to the battery. The toggle switch turns it on/off so I can use it separate to the engine running. I also tested it's accuracy by putting a Fluke multi meter straight on the battery the one on the dash board is .1V ahead of the one on the battery but then they both read the same after about 5 seconds

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:46 pm

scottx wrote:

I have put volt meters on a few bikes now.

The sidecar has a small car battery the volt meter/12V socket is wired straight to the battery. The toggle switch turns it on/off so I can use it separate to the engine running. I also tested it's accuracy by putting a Fluke multi meter straight on the battery the one on the dash board is .1V ahead of the one on the battery but then they both read the same after about 5 seconds

Yeah, that's close enough to know whether something is going broke dick on you before it dies altogether.

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:52 pm

That's handy, where does one come up with a small gauge like that?