Building a race bike.

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:20 pm

JJam wrote:

Hey guy's,

so today I talked with Tom again that run's Precision Cranks. (He is the guy that built the cranks for AHM, Kawasaki and Suzuki. He has also done cranks for V&H) Needless to say he has the experience that I am looking for.

I was discussing with him the way that I planned to knife edge my crank to lighten it on my lathe. He doesn't approve of doing this on a lathe and said that in his opinion the lathe beats the crank to much and puts too much stress on it. He does them with a 4" belt sander and hand grinder.
He also said that years ago he was doing crank balancing for a company that did their own lightening/knife edging and just had him spin balance them.
The customer's cranks were failing and he told them it was due to their method of lightening the cranks. He did a couple for them complete his way and never had another complaint.

What is the consensus of this subject?

Peace, Jim

Without seeing the failure, its really tough to say. Its hard to imagine how the impact of the lathe tool could cause the crank to fail. It makes a difference where you take the material and what shape you leave on the crank throws.

It'd be worth asking about the shape of the throws. Symmetrical might not be the way to go. Were you planning on any Cryo or REM finishing on the crank after you work it? The durability of cranks after cryo and REM is almost bizarre.

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 6:40 pm

I know that a true knife edge is not ideal......the leading edge should be bullet nosed and swept up and out like a wing.....
Callies does it this way and showed me a crank video slowed down in a Spintron......
Knife edge splits and "sprays" it....swept wing walks it around the counterweight.....
Teflon coateing on the counterweights is effective here for shedding or shearing the oil too.....believe it or not.

Jebby

Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 8:00 pm

My methods which include using all of the above including a lathe don't result in broken cranks, in fact the opposite is the case. They are more capable than unmodified OEM versions I start with. As for machining in a lathe, as long as the process is not involving heavy or excessive cuts then there is no problem at all. If there was then we wouldn't be using lathes for anything in this world.
I even weld up the factory balancing holes before I start and once again there is no issue as this area is always the counter weight and has no real structural impact. After that I machine in the lathe the shape I am looking for then it is in the mill to remove the sides............. I do however complete my cranks using a variety of grinding and polishing methods that result in what I have posted about before.
It is where you remove the material from and in particular where NOT to that is the issue.

Captain

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:36 am

Captain wrote:

My methods which include using all of the above including a lathe don't result in broken cranks, in fact the opposite is the case. They are more capable than unmodified OEM versions I start with. As for machining in a lathe, as long as the process is not involving heavy or excessive cuts then there is no problem at all. If there was then we wouldn't be using lathes for anything in this world.
I even weld up the factory balancing holes before I start and once again there is no issue as this area is always the counter weight and has no real structural impact. After that I machine in the lathe the shape I am looking for then it is in the mill to remove the sides............. I do however complete my cranks using a variety of grinding and polishing methods that result in what I have posted about before.
It is where you remove the material from and in particular where NOT to that is the issue.

Captain

It has been a while since I saw a pic of your crank Brent.....is it a swept wing deal? I would expect no less! Very Happy

These technologies happened in Pro-Stock in the late 90's to about 05' when it was done creeping in....
I also know there is a lot of weight to be removed here....

Jebby

Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:20 am

Thanks for the input everybody!

I will save the $300.00 and do the lightening and shaping myself. I have decided to just lighten the crank a little, polish and balance myself.
I will do small cuts and follow all the instruction that Brent has shared with me just not to the full meal deal at this point. I have so many jobs to do on this motor and chassis that Brents style of lightening can wait for another tear down. My heads already spinning as it is.

Got the cases bored to fit the new barrels.

And then the UPS man came and these babys were for me. Does it look like $750.00 to you? Shocked

Kibblewhite shim under buckets and the Ti retainer to hold the smaller shims. I already have the shim kits from my MX days.
Cool

Peace, Jim

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:24 pm

Jebbysan wrote:

Captain wrote:

My methods which include using all of the above including a lathe don't result in broken cranks, in fact the opposite is the case. They are more capable than unmodified OEM versions I start with. As for machining in a lathe, as long as the process is not involving heavy or excessive cuts then there is no problem at all. If there was then we wouldn't be using lathes for anything in this world.
I even weld up the factory balancing holes before I start and once again there is no issue as this area is always the counter weight and has no real structural impact. After that I machine in the lathe the shape I am looking for then it is in the mill to remove the sides............. I do however complete my cranks using a variety of grinding and polishing methods that result in what I have posted about before.
It is where you remove the material from and in particular where NOT to that is the issue.

Captain

It has been a while since I saw a pic of your crank Brent.....is it a swept wing deal? I would expect no less! Very Happy

These technologies happened in Pro-Stock in the late 90's to about 05' when it was done creeping in....
I also know there is a lot of weight to be removed here....

Jebby

Just found an old picture...............The left one was my crank used in my 160hp engine but is now being replaced with a lighter version. It has been in continuous use for over 9 years without any issues at all. (It is still in perfect shape and crack free). The one on the right was sold to another member a while back.
Both of these cranks started life as used OEM 900 cranks and I modify them until they look and perform as shown. Believe it or not they are more robust and will last longer after these modification than any unmodified one. They are clear example and evidence that that Honda crank is a very stout piece and a very good foundation that will take more power and abuse than any of the other brands IMO.

Captain

Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 11:27 pm

Works of art............... Wow

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:10 am

I had APE lighten one of my 900F cranks and though it was lighter it still could have used a lot more weight taken off... It looked nothing like Captain's cranks. Those are works of art. A 750 crank if MUCH lighter, though.

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 1:23 am

Very nice

Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:13 am

Notice that Captains cranks dont have machine marks from being balanced?

I'm betting there are a shit ton of hours wrapped up in those. Work like that doeskin happen on accident.

Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:52 pm

Got the carbs from Cary. They need a good clean and I'll need to go through them and see what size everything is but should do the job.

Also got the Ignitech ignition and new trigger and pickup coil. I will be installing this on the stator side of the motor as the stator and rotor will not be used on this motor.

The crank is in Idaho being de-stroked. It won't be back for nearly 10 weeks so it will be awhile before I order pistons and rods.

Peace, Jim

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:42 am

No charging system?

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:25 am

+1 Jim on the Ignitec Ignition. A little bit different to mine but I bet just as good a system as mine and DonRs bike has, I really think this is what makes such a big difference in the bikes performance.i wish I had the money to get it On the Dyno to see what it is putting out. Any where near what Dons is putting out would be great. Can't speak highly enough about the unit.

Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:43 pm

rexe wrote:

+1 Jim on the Ignitec Ignition. A little bit different to mine but I bet just as good a system as mine and DonRs bike has, I really think this is what makes such a big difference in the bikes performance.i wish I had the money to get it On the Dyno to see what it is putting out. Any where near what Dons is putting out would be great. Can't speak highly enough about the unit.

Craig, I believe this will be a bit better with the style of pick up trigger that I'm using? From what I have read the single pickup with the multiple trigger points is the best but until I test, I'm just going by what I have read?

Shawn, this bike will be a total loss ignition and no starter, starter clutch or gears. I'm after as light as I can get this thing.

Peace, Jim

CB1100F Joined: Feb 17, 2009 Posts: 2106 Location: Oz

JJam wrote:

Craig, I believe this will be a bit better with the style of pick up trigger that I'm using? From what I have read the single pickup with the multiple trigger points is the best but until I test, I'm just going by what I have read?

Yes, I imagine the greater signal resolution would provide more accuracy.

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:13 am

JJam wrote:

Got the carbs from Cary. They need a good clean and I'll need to go through them and see what size everything is but should do the job.

Peace, Jim

Looking good Jim.
BW, if you had left them with me they'd look like this by now. Wink

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:26 am

No they wouldn't, they need to be wider between #2 & #3 LOL. (to match the new Super Head spacing)

I know you are actually talking about having the parts prepped and cleaned as per your picture which is very impressive. How are you doing it?

Captain

Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:03 pm

I soda blasted them. They have new Viton O-rings and new CR style hex head JIS SEM screws are on the way. They used to look the 35's that I sent to Jim.

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:09 am

These new parts came in from Brent. Thank you very much for supplying these custom race parts.

I'm not sure but I believe that the JES BUILT bike will be only the second bike on the planet with Brents custom primary chain tensioner? Cool

Then my AP racing front calipers came in. Now I need pads.

It's getting there. Mainly waiting on the crank to order the rods and pistons. Lots to figure out and decide. Confused

Thanks to guys on here! I'll figure it out.

Peace, Jim

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:41 am

Brent, Here are the specs of the V&H cams that I have. Or I have the Web 110 cams.

The V&H cams are in the best shape. Or I have stock 1100 cams with under 200miles on them.

I will run what you recommend but had never shown you the specs from the V&H.

Peace, Jim

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:44 am

JJam wrote:

These new parts came in from Brent. Thank you very much for supplying these custom race parts.

I'm not sure but I believe that the JES BUILT bike will be only the second bike on the planet with Brents custom primary chain tensioner?

Not quite, not counting a couple of my own, there are 20 of them out there !!!!!! One is even in a SOHC that is using a DOHC crank. Still have 3 0r 4 in stock though.

Captain

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:04 am

JJam wrote:

Brent, Here are the specs of the V&H cams that I have. Or I have the Web 110 cams.

The V&H cams are in the best shape. Or I have stock 1100 cams with under 200miles on them.

I will run what you recommend but had never shown you the specs from the V&H.

Peace, Jim

I don't think the V&H lifts are enough...............So and because of the RPM you will be running, I would opt for the extra lift and duration of the Web #110 installed at no less than 105 lobe on the Ex.
The Inlet you could (and I would) retard it a little by reducing the opening number which increases the closing number. Maybe to around 108-9 deg lobe. This is where the real gains are going to come from as the new ports will provide true intake ram effect and the later closing of the intake will take real advantage of this.
Either way I'll talk to you more about it on the phone next.

Captain

Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:33 pm

Captain wrote:

I don't think the V&H lifts are enough...............So and because of the RPM you will be running, I would opt for the extra lift and duration of the Web #110 installed at no less than 105 lobe on the Ex.
The Inlet you could (and I would) retard it a little by reducing the opening number which increases the closing number. Maybe to around 108-9 deg lobe. This is where the real gains are going to come from as the new ports will provide true intake ram effect and the later closing of the intake will take real advantage of this.
Either way I'll talk to you more about it on the phone next.

Captain

Now we're talking some gooood stuff!

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:16 pm

Here is something I have just completed to suit my new Super head and it's new Intake port spacing.

I am running 39mm CR"s bored to 40mm and as they are re-spaced I have I have made new throttle shafts to allow this. They are made from 6061 aluminium and anodized blue as can be seen. They came out exceptionally well and other than length and colour they are absolutely identical to the OEM part.
In my particular install it requires a TPS (throttle position sensor) and it will be fitted to the L/H end of the shaft and be fixed in place using the redundant choke/enrichment attachment points. (Pictures to come later). This means that I have made the shaft longer at that end by 30mm than would be otherwise necessary (end I'm holding) and so it protrudes past the carburettor at that end. I don't imagine anyone else needs this feature and it can easily be cut off so that the shaft then ends inside the carburettor the same as OEM.

Jim, I know you are extremely busy and haven't got around to making this for yourself and your project, so I'm sending one for your build. I'll send it out tomorrow packed inside an aluminium tube so it cannot be damaged in transit. I am also about to make the correct angle brackets to suit in folded aluminium that fix to the top and bottom of the carburettors and that will lock them all together as per OEM. Once they are done I'll also send a set.

Captain

Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:51 pm

WOW, Thank You AGAIN Brent!! Shocked

Can you say SPONSORED by VINCE & HYDE RACING.

Guy's Brent has been "exceptionally" helpful to my efforts. I could never Thank Him enough!!

Peace, Jim

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:09 am

Hey guys,

It's been awhile since an update on this bike.

No pictures sorry. I'll try tomorrow. Just been collecting parts and trying to get caught up on jobs, so I can get on this bike.

So far this is what has come in.

First off the Super head has shown up.
The crank is de-stroked and back in my hands.
Pulled the used CR carbs apart and my OCD kicked in and I ordered new ones from Dynoman. They are on the way.
The GSXR wheels are at the powder coater and I pulled the stock steel wheel bearing spacers and made some aluminum ones. I saved 4.5 ounces with them. Yes I'm counting grams that add up to pounds.
Got some rear sets that I will base mine from. They look too modern for my likings so I will change them up some.
Got new Renthal bars that Dennis prefers for it.
Got a new folding and fully adjustable clutch lever and perch.
Captains carb space bar to match the new head spacing.

That's all for tonight. I'll try some pictures tomorrow.

Peace, Jim

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:33 am

Jim..........November? Dude. I know there are recent pics of you working on the frame. Cmon give us a peek lol.

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:11 pm

Or the case windows!

Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:38 pm

nathanhouse wrote:

Or the case windows!

Good point!

Posted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:32 am

Magic windows are done, Oil grooves for the mains are done, frame is done (except that I had to ditch cutting the steering neck for this go around because way to much is going on in my shop plus it will be easier for Dennis to adapt to, I'll save that for next year), wheels are all powder coated and done up, forks are being re-valved and I have figured out that I can run aftermarket rods in 1100 length which will save me a few hundred dollars.

Sorry n showing much on here lately. I have been posting daily on my "JES BUILT Motorcycles" FB page. I can do it without posting to photobucket first and just don't have much time anymore. I'm essentially building 4 CB motors all right now and interviewing 1 to 2 people a day to hire. Plus remodeling my other building to get it ready for the waterjet machine. What can I say other then I'm lazy.

I will show more on here near the end which will be March and then in April I will deliver the bike to Dennis at Willow springs and then stay and go to Sonoma the following weekend and watch again. I even bought a new to me Van to haul the bike in. Lots going on.

Peace, Jim