Building a race bike.

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 6:26 pm

DennisTheMenace wrote:

JJam wrote:

OK sounds like I need to send Brent some money to ship the cylinder block and get on with resleeving them.

I like the idea of large bore short stroke for faster revs but need to decide which rods will work the best & stay to some sort of a budget plus be strong enough to handle the high revs?

Options are;

1. use 750 rods and polish and peen them. cheapest and weakest.

2. 1100 rods do the same treatment and use a spacer plate to get the deck height. This is a cheap route also but may cause problems with cam chain length??

3. Have some custom Carrillo rods made at the same length as 750 rods with 17mm pins??

Also, I didn't mention it but I will be annieing up for one of Brents heads. This will make all the difference when Dennis is trying to beat the larger cc'd bikes out there.

As far as putting this thread in the performance forum? I don't really care and have never put anything that I do in that forum. I'm not doing anything that I personally came up with so IMO I'm not doing anything special. In other words. I'm a copy cat as I'm way late to the game. About 30yrs so it seems.

Peace, Jim

What about option #2a? Since custom pistons will be made anyway move the wristpin location up in the new pistons the same distance the 11F rod is longer (there's plenty of room between the ring land and the wristpin hole) and not have any cam chain length issues, won't require a spacer plate and won't have any added cost? (3rd time me mentioning this might be a charm... Smile

)

Like I said Dennis, I'm pretty thick skulled. I will see what needs to be done to make that option happen.

How about some SOHC 750 rods. These are cheap but aluminum which may not be a good idea for a road race motor?? IDK?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-CB750-A-F-K-69-78-Set-Forged-Connecting-Rods-NEW-cafe-cb-750-sohc-racer-/221436213964?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item338ea07acc&vxp=mtr

I'm also looking at a set of CBR600 Carrillo I beam rods. But waiting to see how long they are?

Also since I'm not piston guru. Would it be best to just order the domes the same as Wiseco pistons?

My heads spinning.

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 6:40 pm

I will be following this thread with interest........ very closely indeed Wink

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 7:09 pm

I keep suggesting these things since I'm a cheap guy WHEN I CAN BE.

As I let all these things sit in my head and run through many "What if...." scenarios then some options kind of shout out to me. Brent said something that stuck in my head too - "Use as low a dome as you can get away with."

The pistons will be custom to your specifications and the cost will be fixed for the set. The guidance you provide for dome shape, wristpin size & location and everything else is easiest when you supply a piston and say this is what I want except for these changes, which you then list.

If an 1123 Wiseco piston is available, all you'd have to do is send it to JE and say: I want this piston in 69mm with this dome (the Wiseco 1123 piston doesn't have a wedge dome like their 985 kit but instead has a 'rounded' dome) and the wristpin moved up 0.098" (according to my Mitutoyo dial calipers; your measurements may vary) from the current location in this piston. JE can do it easily, ESPECIALLY if you provide the piston you want them to copy from. JE can provide the rings, wristpins, clips and pistons along with a job number in case you need to order more. You can use the part number on the rings (they should be from Wiseco) to order more from directly from Wiseco if you need any.

750 cam chains & tensioners will (hopefully) then fit. No spacer plate is needed to adjust piston deck height since you took care of it with the custom piston. Your CB1000C motor has the rods you need. It also has the liners (maybe) and/or the cylinder 'blank' (maybe) depending on what turns out with the RSC/AHM cylinder from Brent. I compared my 1100 barrel and 750 barrel - the locating dowels can extend into air since there's no need to enclose them; you just need them to center the cylinder bores.

You'll save money because there's no need to spend money on rods you don't need, and that could be a pile of money!

One thing you'll need to be aware of is the combustion chamber shape and how that matches up with your piston dome - I think Brent's head will be more 11F style combustion chamber than 900F which is pinched at the sides, which is why I suggested the 1123 style dome. If you use your 11F head then all would be good.

If it were MY money and MY parts this is how I'd do it - I'd remove the CB1000C liners, remove 0.235" from the bottom (this brings the bottom aluminum surface very close to the lower tensioner hole at the rear) of the 1000C aluminum block, modify/shorten the 1000C liners and reinstall them. Get my magic pistons with the moved wristpin and install them on 11F/1000C rods using the 17mm pin. Install 750 cam chains & tensioners, 750 jackshaft & primary chain since the 900F won't work, use the 1000C transmission, get big-ass carbs and go make noise... Smile

Thinking is free... Planning is free... Building it - not so much! (that's what my daughter would say)

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 7:46 pm

DennisTheMenace wrote:

If it were MY money and MY parts...

To clarify my statement - it isn't MY money or MY parts so I'm not deciding; it's Jim's call all the way and I'm just offering a free opinion (worth every penny) on what I'd do if I ever got around to it. Smile

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 8:12 pm

I need to read the above again and get my head around it all but I can say this...........

Do not use a 1100 head (MG5) as your basis, you will struggle to get compression. In fact if you did you would end up putting so much dome on the piston you would end up with the old school answer and so suppress the ability to maintain turbulence. This would defeat much of the new port orientation.
I have geared up to use 900 heads (461) "D" port exhaust because the chamber is smaller to start with, however it might be worth considering a 750 head (425) but unfortunately they are round exhaust port and I don't favour that, however others do. But I stand by my view as I have had better results with the "D" port.
Just sounding off at this point, because I can use whatever head series you want as a starting point but I think your best bet is to use the 900 (461) head and plane it as much as you can, in fact you can take them down to as far as touching the intake valve insert.
As far as rods go............Remember that this engine will be RPM'd hard so any compromise about rods and wrist pins is a step in the wrong direction.

Captain

Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:21 pm

Captain wrote:

...but I can say this...........

Do not use a 1100 head (MG5) as your basis, you will struggle to get compression. In fact if you did you would end up putting so much dome on the piston you would end up with the old school answer and so suppress the ability to maintain turbulence. This would defeat much of the new port orientation.

As far as rods go............Remember that this engine will be RPM'd hard so any compromise about rods and wrist pins is a step in the wrong direction.

Captain

I don't mind listening and I'm always happy to learn something the easy way... Thanks!

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 12:16 am

I like smaller chambers and smaller domes whenever possible.

Do NOT be in a hurry to order custom pistons. MANY decisions have to be made before ordering. The whole combination will have to be sorted out before you can make the call to JE.

We should see what ring packs are available in this bore size. What wiseco offers may not be the best option. Do I remember this right are you going to run a 69.5mm bore?

Nich

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:10 am

F-crazy wrote:

I like smaller chambers and smaller domes whenever possible.

Do NOT be in a hurry to order custom pistons. MANY decisions have to be made before ordering. The whole combination will have to be sorted out before you can make the call to JE.

We should see what ring packs are available in this bore size. What wiseco offers may not be the best option. Do I remember this right are you going to run a 69.5mm bore?

Nich

Nich, 69 bore and 62mm stroke gets just over 927cc's and meets the 931cc cut off. Brent has suggested 35mm carbs for this set up.

The guy that I emailed about his Carrillo rods said they are for an 03 to o6 CBR600rr and they measure 128mm overall and 90mm center to center.

Not sure what bearing size is in the CBR600RR so it could be a long shot but he is in Portland and I'm sure that I could go measure them and see if they are usable.
I need a 750 rod to measure but the only one I have is in a rebuilt motor and its not coming apart again for a long while.

At less then half the cost of new rods it is tempting.

Don't worry about me marching off and buying pistons just yet Nich. I am pretty methodical when it comes to making decisions unless I'm racing then I'm sharp as a tack. LOL

Peace,

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:46 am

Jim, I have 750 rod(s) if you want one or more for measuring or whatever.

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:46 am

Question: Are the 900C heads the "D" port (461) you like to use Captain? And what about the 1000C heads? Excuse my ignorance but I might have a line on a few of these heads.........

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:47 am

Now, about pistons.........Or more accurately, rings.
One of the most important things is to use narrower rings which have many advantages and the most important in this particular case is avoiding "ring flutter" at the RPM intended.
I don't know where you will find them for the bore size that is unfolding (69.5 mm.....is this right?) but you need .8 x .8x 1.5 mm ring pack (or as close to this you can get).
I use this size in my own engines with hard anodized pistons and the ring stability and seal both to the bore and piston ring land is exceptional.

Captain

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:51 am

The thinner the ring the less friction. The less friction the less heat. Learned this playing with Ford windsors.......and a couple clevelands.

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:57 am

Sorry for interrupting guys........ Embarassed

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:13 am

1100russ wrote:

Question: Are the 900C heads the "D" port (461) you like to use Captain? And what about the 1000C heads? Excuse my ignorance but I might have a line on a few of these heads.........

The 461 heads are late model 900 and are all "D" port, and preferred because of the smaller chamber, but I have seen (occasionally) 438 heads that are "D" port but more often than not they aren't, so I avoid them.

As for what the 1000c has (xxx) I have no idea as I have never even seen one in the flesh let alone taken one apart. (this is what happens when you live in a small country like NZ).

Captain

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:29 am

When you say D port you mean looking into the head from the exhaust side the port is shaped in a D correct? Is the flat on top or bottom? I would guess bottom? Never really looked into this. I will be in the garage tomorrow checking this out. Will also get in touch with my friend who may have some of these heads. I know you said it probably would not work to do an "exchange" deal with you to purchase your head Captain (now that sounded wrong Laughing

) but if you could let me know what to look for I might be able to procure you a few of these. Have been talking to him anyway about getting one for a track bike project I have floating in my head right now.

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:36 am

Captain wrote:

Now, about pistons.........Or more accurately, rings.
One of the most important things is to use narrower rings which have many advantages and the most important in this particular case is avoiding "ring flutter" at the RPM intended.
I don't know where you will find them for the bore size that is unfolding (69.5 mm.....is this right?) but you need .8 x .8x 1.5 mm ring pack (or as close to this you can get).
I use this size in my own engines with hard anodized pistons and the ring stability and seal both to the bore and piston ring land is exceptional.

Captain

That's what I was getting at when I mentioned looking into available rings. That would b a sweet ring pack if it can be sourced. I'm not sure if Jim will find anything that thin in that bore size here in the states. You'd think someone would be selling them. I checked Total seal and didn't see them.

As long as we are talking rings how far up the piston can you place the top ring land? Also I assume you run gas nitrided steel top rings? Napier second? Low tension oil ring?

Nich

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:43 am

1100russ wrote:

When you say D port you mean looking into the head from the exhaust side the port is shaped in a D correct? Is the flat on top or bottom? I would guess bottom? Never really looked into this. I will be in the garage tomorrow checking this out. Will also get in touch with my friend who may have some of these heads. I know you said it probably would not work to do an "exchange" deal with you to purchase your head Captain (now that sounded wrong Laughing

) but if you could let me know what to look for I might be able to procure you a few of these. Have been talking to him anyway about getting one for a track bike project I have floating in my head right now.

Yes, it is the exhaust port and the flat is on the bottom. Basically the floor is raised so that when looking at it where the exhaust pipe attaches the port look like a "D" laying on its back.

I have 7 heads at present and are only processing 5 and until those are completed and sold I won't be starting anymore. If you have a line on more heads they must be serviceable as a core and be complete with the matching cam caps.

Captain.

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:47 am

Brent

Have you got takers on all five heads?

Jim

I have RSC rods. Are they not 750 length?

David

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 3:55 am

F-crazy wrote:

Captain wrote:

Now, about pistons.........Or more accurately, rings.
One of the most important things is to use narrower rings which have many advantages and the most important in this particular case is avoiding "ring flutter" at the RPM intended.
I don't know where you will find them for the bore size that is unfolding (69.5 mm.....is this right?) but you need .8 x .8x 1.5 mm ring pack (or as close to this you can get).
I use this size in my own engines with hard anodized pistons and the ring stability and seal both to the bore and piston ring land is exceptional.

Captain

That's what I was getting at when I mentioned looking into available rings. That would b a sweet ring pack if it can be sourced. I'm not sure if Jim will find anything that thin in that bore size here in the states. You'd think someone would be selling them. I checked Total seal and didn't see them.

As long as we are talking rings how far up the piston can you place the top ring land? Also I assume you run gas nitrided steel top rings? Napier second? Low tension oil ring?

Nich

This is about JJams build so everything I say even if it is about my own stuff is to help Jim decide what is best for him. That now said, I can answer your questions.
The top ring position is dictated mostly by the placement, size and depth of the valve pockets. The piston is gas ported (horizontally) and the oil is low tension but other than that are conventional.

Captain

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:20 am

I've started to really think about this and the following is my suggestion about how to do this and get the maximum bang for your buck.

Go 70 mm bore and 60 mm stroke and use the RSC/AHM barrel as it is. De-stroke a 750 crank to 60 mm by sending it to APE (No idea what that will cost but its achievable as it is only a 2 mm reduction) resulting engine size 924cc. Lighten the crank yourself along the lines I have explained. Chose the best quality and longest rod you can using 17 mm wrist pin and have a custom piston made to suit the combination. The advantage here is that at 70 mm bore you don't have to re-sleeve the barrels, have better breathing, you can access rings from Total Seal in that size and as the cost to produce the piston is no different being either 69 or 70 mm.
If this was my project this is what I would be doing.................

Captain

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 4:25 am

Brent, my thought (assumption) was that you'd be using 900 heads. It makes perfect sense, they're more plentiful by a bunch than 1100 heads, and less filling in to do.

The 1000 head has the D exhaust port, but I'm not sure you'll like the chamber shape. It would seem that sticking with one version would be what you're after. I think I have some pics stored of a 1000 chamber, let's see... These are from ebay sellers... I've never had a 1000 motor apart, just 900s and 1100s ...

Well, perhaps not as much different from 900s shape as I thought.

edited brain fart... on the rod length. oops.

Having custom Carrillos made is going to be spendy. The last I heard, which was a few years ago, to get their normal 1100 F (called turbo, but it just means they have the notch in the bearing) rods, which are special order only nowadays, the retail was $1300 a set for existing designs. My guess is special order would probably be considerably more.

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 5:39 am

I will call APE tomorrow and see what De stroking the crank will cost?

So far going the 69mmx62mm stroke motor.

This is the costs not including the head as I don't know that yet but heres what I have come up with.

$6855.00 not including the original bike at $600.00 and the couple thousand that I have spent on parts already.
After Brents head I may be into this bike near $12,000.00?

Its only money. Very Happy

She will be as nice as I can build and Bright Yellow with the two tone Blue decal set which I forgot to include so add another $200.00 into the equation.

I know many on here that have spent this much and more on their Hot Rod CB-F's not to mention the R guys on here and what they pay to make them NOS and perfect.

Shoot I might as well go ahead and buy the 88 GSXR wheels that I just saw for another $580.00 shipped to me with discs and cush drive.

Glad my wife doesn't ask to many questions. Very Happy

CB1100F Joined: Jun 18, 2006 Posts: 2529 Location: UK

DennisTheMenace wrote:

Jim, I have 750 rod(s) if you want one or more for measuring or whatever.

Hi Dennis/Jim

Just measured a 750 rod and is 114.4mm ctr-ctr

Also measured a RSC Rod and is 113.0 ctr-ctr with a 17mm Pin

Keith

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Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 11:41 am

Thanks Brent!

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 1:17 pm

Is it possible to modify the 1100 stock carbs or 29mm CR's to flow better and still be legal under AHRMA?

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 7:10 pm

Just got the cost from APE on de-stroking the crank. That's another $1100.00 and a big ouch but expected it to be in that range.

Brent, How much of a power loos would it be if I just stuck to a 900 crank, 1100 rods and had some custom 65.5mm pistons made which gives me 930cc's.

Are we talking 10 plus HP?
If so I then I would still like to see if I can just fit the 1000c cylinders in your RSC block. This will determine the way that I go with the motor.

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 7:40 pm

JJam wrote:

Just got the cost from APE on de-stroking the crank. That's another $1100.00 and a big ouch but expected it to be in that range.

Brent, How much of a power loos would it be if I just stuck to a 900 crank, 1100 rods and had some custom 65.5mm pistons made which gives me 930cc's.

Are we talking 10 plus HP?
If so I then I would still like to see if I can just fit the 1000c cylinders in your RSC block. This will determine the way that I go with the motor.

A good crank grinder could do that for half that.....look around.

Jebby

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:26 pm

Jim, if at all possible, can you document (with pics) the moving of the steering stem? I might be looking into this for my track bike project. If not I understand. Sounds like like you got about 14 irons in the fire at the same time! Wink

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 8:33 pm

1100russ wrote:

Jim, if at all possible, can you document (with pics) the moving of the steering stem? I might be looking into this for my track bike project. If not I understand. Sounds like like you got about 14 irons in the fire at the same time! Wink

You got that right. Its pretty crazy here at my shop and it really doesn't help when my mill is down while I wait for parts for the 2nd time this month. I have lost 2 and half weeks due to it. Twisted Evil

I do plan to document this whole build and will start showing pictures of the frame in about a week?

Jebby got any names of places that you know do cranks?

Peace, Jim

Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 11:43 pm

Ours does... We don't weld cranks but there is a place north of here that does. At least I assume it needs to be welded first...