Belt Drive Conversion

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:53 am

Has anyone looked at the possibility of converting to a belt drive?
Travis

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:03 am

Are you thinking of making a chopper 'F Question

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:08 am

nope I saw it mentioned on another site and was curious.

Travis

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:57 am

I guess anythings possible..... but just curious.... why would you want a belt drive F?

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:24 am

I am not sure that I do. It caught my attention and has me thinking. Was wondering if anyone else has thought about it. Would be a great conversation next time someone asked about the bike.

Travis

Hawk Joined: Sep 18, 2003 Posts: 317 Location: Bangor, ME.

Buell did it on their bikes. I read an article/interview with Eric Buell and he was loudly proclaiming the merits of belt drive and how he used the swingarm and placement of the belt tensioner to provide better power delivery (smoother and more efficient) to the rear wheel. So whenever I get a chance to blow by a Buell at high speed I do it, just to see how fast the flashy Harley Davidson's are.

So far, still WICKED slow. Laughing

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:43 pm

one of those buells drove past me in my cage a couple of days ago, man that thing sounded like it was sick and trying to throw up.

In the end a belt will never have the tensile strength of a chain, especially not for the price.

Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:27 pm

Yeah I think that an F would eat belts up.

Sean

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:00 am

The uneven power? pulses of the Harley/Buell are smoothed by the "springiness" of the belt. On a bike with real power it would spit rubber teeth off it. Want an example? The belt used on most overhead cam autos is a failure prone part and only drives a camshaft with fairly mild springs.

Real oddness of design on a Harley. The front belt(if so equipped) is like 3" wide,while the rear belt is only like 1". The load on the primary drive belt is a fraction of the rear because of the transmission torque multiplying effect.

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:06 pm

For some reason the primary(front) belt tends to wear more, I guess the whole pulse thing you mentioned. As long as the engine is running it's wearing. Every time you idle, it's when the belt really starts jumping around, while the back one sits stationary until you start rolling, by then the RPM went up and the pulses smoothed out. Plus Harleys are a lot about looks, the clutch basket is huge so if you put a 1inch belt you're left with a silly looking gap. Suppose you can run a 3 inch belt in the back, but how much room will it leave for the tire. For the 3 years I worked on Harleys, I only saw one broken belt. On an FXR and mostly because the guy had the back wheel running almost diagonal in the swing arm. Now remember, the chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Even with all the hours we waste on lubing and cleaning our chains and scooping out the nasty gunk they leave all around, chains still wear faster than belts, brake more often and just generally noisy pain in the ass. My friend right now is looking at $2500 new cases for his Ducati (not to mention labor to replace them) because his masterlink came apart and now there is a gaping hole in the back of the engine. That dosent happen with a belt.

Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 4:17 pm

I had a friend in MMI that had a Buel and while leaving school the belt let go and off to the side of the road did he go.
We put that heavy POS in the back of a truck and went back to school and borrowed a temporary belt that got him home.
What caused the belt to break was the oil leaking on it from the shitty ass motor that was on the bike.
Like Jason said, it sounded like it was sick all the time when running and it was healthy except for the oil leak.
The Gilmer belt is a good thing on a Cruiser, that is where it should stay.

CB1100F Joined: Mar 03, 2004 Posts: 3278 Location: Seattle

WHY???

You want to run a Rubber Band, buy a Harley....... Shocked

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:25 pm

Blainethemono wrote:

WHY???

You want to run a Rubber Band, buy a Harley....... Shocked

The above quote expresses my opinion fairly well.

To elaborate further: Around these parts those nice Harley riders are breaking belts fairly often. I estimate a drive belt replacement on a Evo Soft-tail at a little over four hours of shop time. This is not a bad job if you have a frame spreader to remove & re-install the swing arm. Taking the outer primary case off and the clutch is not difficult either, but you sure have to pay attention on re-assembly otherwise the primary case will leak oil. I replace every gasket, O-ring, & seal encountered with all new parts at the owner's expense so I do not have to deal with complaints about oil leaks. I still get the oil leak come back complaints, but I have the owner park his Hog on a field of clean newspapers overnight in the back corner of the shop & when he comes back the next day I can usually get him to admit that it is not the recently serviced primary case that is leaking oil.

The XB9R is the best bike Harley (HD owns 96% of Buell) that HD has made to date. One of the first things serious & competent sportbike riders do to their XB9Rs is purchase the "race" chain drive conversion kit from Buell.

The KZ440 is another belt drive bike I see from time to time. They are all passing twenty years old now. Most of the ones I see lately have 10,000 to 15,000 miles on them and the belts are shot. When I tell the owner the 129-tooth belt cost $310.00 plus labor they get a painful & confused look on their faces. The decision at that point is usually a for sale sign on the belt drive bike followed by a pre-buy inspection on a chain or shaft drive bike.

Modern good chains have 10,600 LBS (4,818.2 Kg) tensil strengths and rivet type master links. I have never seen a chain failure that was not related to either low-balling when purchasing a chain or total lack of maintenance. Chains are like lead acid batteries: They are both simple technologies to understand & keep running for years. The trouble comes from our throwaway mentality that prevents many of us from understanding & maintaining.

Broken engine cases from the above mentioned chain failures are repairable. This process takes advance skills & considerable money. No JB Weld is ever involved in the correct repair of this problem!

Belt final drives are weak, they consume more horsepower than a chain, they are easily injured by stones cobbles gravel & pebbles, they have to be so shielded from debris that they are a first class pain in the ass to change a rear tire on. Belt final drives suck, but they are idiot-proof & the meek are inheriting the earth.

CB1100F Joined: Mar 03, 2004 Posts: 3278 Location: Seattle

Quote:

but I have the owner park his Hog on a field of clean newspapers overnight in the back corner of the shop & when he comes back the next day I can usually get him to admit that it is not the recently serviced primary case that is leaking oil.

OOOOOOOOOOoooooo, I just LOVE the way you think..... Twisted Evil

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:26 am

Blainethemono wrote:

Quote:

but I have the owner park his Hog on a field of clean newspapers overnight in the back corner of the shop & when he comes back the next day I can usually get him to admit that it is not the recently serviced primary case that is leaking oil.

OOOOOOOOOOoooooo, I just LOVE the way you think..... Twisted Evil

come on Bob you're here because you were thinking about belt drive for DaBeast....... Shocked

.....

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:46 am

I saw a listing of an article in a motorbike mechanic magazine, an English magazine I believe. Not sure of the name of the magazine, 'Classic Motorcycle Mechanics' or something like that. It was a listing of an old issue and it was titled "Belt Drive conversion for CB900F" or something similar. I don't have the magazine but I know it exists so it can obviously be done.

What I have heard from a man who repairs bike frames for a living is that he's seen a conversion on a CB1100F, but due to the fact that it had rubber engine mounts (which, while dampening vibration, also reduces the stiffness of the frame and allows it to flex more), the belt would sometimes under hard acceleration come off. This could also have been caused by bad workmanship, but he believes it was the flex in the frame that caused it.

I dunno if this helps, but if you find a copy of that magazine article, let me know and I'll get a copy of it, or post it in the 'Technical documents' area.

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:21 pm

A friend of mine spent a very large sum of money "hotting up" his Buell 1200. The end result was the bike was still a leaky shuddering dog, only now it broke drive belts. By the end of the third belt the bike had basically disintegrated like a cheap suit. He swore he would NEVER go down that road again.

p.s. MY VTR would easily annihilate his Buell under any conditions.

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:56 pm

I was poking along on my ZRX going though town one day when a Harley pulled out of a repair/accessory shop right in front of me and we got to ride in formation for about a mile. There were five stoplights in that mile, and we had to stop at every one - him in front, me right behind, and no cars in front of us every time. When the light turned green, there was this incredibly loud farting and popping noise that shook my faceshield and you could see the guy on the Harley winding up his throttle (I think it might have been a 2/3 super slow turn throttle) and banging through the first two gears accelerating hard (for a Harley) and weaving side to side, trying to stay in our lane while shifting and making noise. I will admit I did have to spin my bike up to almost 2500rpm in the first two gears to keep up with him... But then we had to stop at the next red light, him in front, me right behind, no cars in front, and we got to repeat this through the first four lights. I was starting to get a headache. On the fifth light the Harley made it most of the way through the intersection, then spit the BELT and coasted to the side.

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:52 pm

I have encountered only three modification ideas on this site that I do not like. I am not saying they are bad ideas; I am just saying you will never see any of them on a CB....F firmly under my influence. Belt final drives, hydraulic actuated clutches, & spin on oil filters. To each his own though.

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:11 pm

DennisTheMenace wrote:

On the fifth light the Harley made it most of the way through the intersection, then spit the BELT and coasted to the side.

Harly an excuse to break down roflmao

belts are a bitch to get back on too... Confused

I worked on a Suzuki Savage changed the back tire but didn't realize the belt wasn't on all the way when I rolled it forward the belt slipped off... I had to put it on a lift and take the rear axle out again!

Whats nice about MC chains are if they for some reason derail and you carry a small screwdriver with you you can put the chain back on till you can get somewhere to tighten the chain.

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:51 pm

The belts on the Harleys are much better than most of you guys would like to hear! The V-Rod has a belt drive and has more torque - the number that actually determines the load of the drive train, not horsepower, btw - than the CB1100F. I know a ton of people who rode their HDs in excess of 80,000 miles with one belt. Do that with a chain! I caught a pea-size gravel bit between the belt and the rear sprocket on my HD. The rock punched a hole through the belt. The belt is still on the bike.
That doesn't mean, I would want a belt-drive on my VF1000R, or my CBX or the CB1100R for that matter. Like Matt says: To each his own! A word to the wise is never necessary, it is the fools who need it most!

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:00 pm

Comin back form the Long beach m/c swap i saw a belt in the middle of my lane and mile up the road was a dude pushing his custom Choppper up the road which was belt less:D

I'd rather have a chain.

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:02 pm

valveshim wrote:

The belts on the Harleys are much better than most of you guys would like to hear! The V-Rod has a belt drive and has more torque - the number that actually determines the load of the drive train, not horsepower, btw - than the CB1100F. I know a ton of people who rode their HDs in excess of 80,000 miles with one belt. Do that with a chain! I caught a pea-size gravel bit between the belt and the rear sprocket on my HD. The rock punched a hole through the belt. The belt is still on the bike.
That doesn't mean, I would want a belt-drive on my VF1000R, or my CBX or the CB1100R for that matter. Like Matt says: To each his own! A word to the wise is never necessary, it is the fools who need it most!

You know its just like everything.. some people have great luck with belts. Some people have bad luck. Same thing with chains, cars, bikes, jobs, computers, pretty much everything.

Belts will fall off Waaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier then chains, belts are not nearly as strong as chains.

If I where you I would change that belt with the hole...

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:11 pm

do you have any idea how wide the belt would have to be to accomidate the power of the F motor??? Mad

I saw the numbers breakdown once, and for 100 hp the belt would have to be something insane like 14 inches wide.
There is a reason all these bikes have chains....

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:37 pm

eatpasta wrote:

do you have any idea how wide the belt would have to be to accomidate the power of the F motor??? Mad

I saw the numbers breakdown once, and for 100 hp the belt would have to be something insane like 14 inches wide.
There is a reason all these bikes have chains....

Then why does a 131 V twin have a 4" primary? and 1" drive belt? Arn't those engines well over 100 horse?

Not for a V-twin, just curious. Or are we talking different belts??

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:41 pm

eatpasta wrote:

do you have any idea how wide the belt would have to be to accomidate the power of the F motor??? Mad

I saw the numbers breakdown once, and for 100 hp the belt would have to be something insane like 14 inches wide.
There is a reason all these bikes have chains....

I think you're giving the F chopper lurkers ideas Laughing

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:54 pm

Squatch71 wrote:

eatpasta wrote:

do you have any idea how wide the belt would have to be to accomidate the power of the F motor??? Mad

I saw the numbers breakdown once, and for 100 hp the belt would have to be something insane like 14 inches wide.
There is a reason all these bikes have chains....

Then why does a 131 V twin have a 4" primary? and 1" drive belt? Arn't those engines well over 100 horse?

Not for a V-twin, just curious. Or are we talking different belts??

Because they cruise and change them as often as some change their underwear , and the ones who try to race around w/belts end up being the story of the hour, and usually end up Converting to a chain anyways after the 3RD or so belt failure.
In other words: Those guys usually have money to burn:
High horse 120+ daily rider Harley/chopper w/a belt = lucky Mf'er with deep pockets who may end up converting to a chain anyway.

Low horse 90 and under daily rider Harley/chopper w/a belt = not enough power to worry the owner but still has a trailer w/parts following close by and/or sees the HD dealership on a daily basis to use that warranty he paid through the ass for. The same also can apply to the High Horse model too!
Laughing

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:23 am

If you bother to study up on & learn and the practice good chain maintenance you will find it to be an astoundingly efficient final drive. Also, you might want to stop buying Johnny Wal-Mart Bargain Basement Chains.

It is only those who insist upon absolute idiot proofing, clean hands, & white shirts that whine constantly about chains.

If you want a belt drive go buy a Harley and be part of the center of the bell curve: You'll love it, it is a way of life.

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:41 am

Matt at PSB wrote:

If you bother to study up on & learn and the practice good chain maintenance you will find it to be an astoundingly efficient final drive. Also, you might want to stop buying Johnny Wal-Mart Bargain Basement Chains.

It is only those who insist upon absolute idiot proofing, clean hands, & white shirts that whine constantly about chains.

If you want a belt drive go buy a Harley and be part of the center of the bell curve: You'll love it, it is a way of life.

Thats our Matt! roflmao

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:46 am

What's wrong with "spin-on" oil filters?