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Captain
CB1100F
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Joined: Jan 02, 2009
Posts: 2250
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:43 am Reply with quote Back to top

Another batch of our improved AHM type dry sump oil tanks. These are shipping to the US today. They incorporate the very best in De-aeration design and total oil control as those that have them know first hand.
Captain

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nlovie
Black CB750F
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Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 882
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

going to customers that already have the other bits, or are you in the process of also turning out dry sump and pump kits ? - speaking of which, can you run a wet clutch set up with the dry sump kit ?

and a final "speaking of which" - recently looked at an Egli "spine" frame = wetted my appetite for another frame building project, although the original bikes were a bit quirky ref: the body work, the frame really does lend itself to a home shed replica - not a pipe bend to be seen and you get an oil tank for free Smile
 
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Captain
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Jan 02, 2009
Posts: 2250
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:18 pm Reply with quote Back to top

nlovie wrote:
going to customers that already have the other bits, or are you in the process of also turning out dry sump and pump kits ? - speaking of which, can you run a wet clutch set up with the dry sump kit ?

and a final "speaking of which" - recently looked at an Egli "spine" frame = wetted my appetite for another frame building project, although the original bikes were a bit quirky ref: the body work, the frame really does lend itself to a home shed replica - not a pipe bend to be seen and you get an oil tank for free Smile


1/ I have manufactured and supplied several tanks to Japan and Australia and as far as I know all have had RSC Dry Sump set-ups but didn't have tanks or what they had was not as functionally effective as mine.

2/ I have lent a complete RSC dry sump set-up to JJam & Victor Peters and between them they are underway manufacturing all the components (pump, fittings, cover and pan) except for the oil tank which will come from me. I just don't need the hassle of doing anything other than the tanks as I've got enough to do on other developments and have enough parts for multiple engines anyway.

3/ Yes you can run a dry sump set-up on a wet clutch engine.

4/ The oil tank is not just a empty bucket. There is a series of tubes and separators inside it that remove the all air from the oil which is the "key" to it all and what I have manufactured does this very -very effectively. Then there are
the breathers and penetrations that remain open no matter what the bike is doing. With the large tube of an Egli type frame you do have the advantage of a long tube that is so long that the air separation is achieved naturally. Even so if you ever built one I would very much recommend that it was heavily baffled to stop surge under acceleration and braking and still fit separators to remove the air more efficiently.

Captain

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nlovie
Black CB750F
Black CB750F



Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 882
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:39 am Reply with quote Back to top

I do have a tank to make for my P&M - some idiot took a grinder to the original Embarassed , is the internals you use along the lines of what Honda sugest in the RSC manual using a cyclone as the principle- add in some coalescer / baffle plates and a metal gauze on the vent exit ?

home made Egli is just dreaming up idea's - nice to ponder
 
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Captain
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Jan 02, 2009
Posts: 2250
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:57 am Reply with quote Back to top

nlovie wrote:
I do have a tank to make for my P&M - some idiot took a grinder to the original Embarassed , is the internals you use along the lines of what Honda sugest in the RSC manual using a cyclone as the principle- add in some coalescer / baffle plates and a metal gauze on the vent exit ?

home made Egli is just dreaming up idea's - nice to ponder



That's very unfortunate on the tank and grinder, but look for the silver lining in a dark cloud instead. Here's your opportunity to make a better one and so reduces or eliminate any later problems due to a poor design.

As for the internals I use, yes they are loosely based on what you call "cyclone" but that is a little misleading as I have taken it several steps further. There are two tubes (one inside the other) and they both have certain sized holes/perforations that promote or induce the breaking of surface tension of the oil as the oil/air passes through these holes as this accelerates the separation of the air from the oil much more quickly than just waiting for the air to float to the surface and break through this tension naturally. It also keeps the oil in a much thinner layer whilst traversing the space between these two tubes and so reduces the distance for the air to separate. The size of both tubes is matched to the volumes being processed and to make this more effective as the end of the tubes is sealed with only the inner remaining open (I have never seen this done anywhere else) This ensures that 100% of the oil passes through these holes/perforations and not just drops out the end and straight towards the pick-up. This provides a much better use of the total volume without a portion of it being recycled more often. There is also the different height of holes/perforations that the inner tube has in relationship to the outer and this promotes the air towards the middle and upward through a tapered plate that slows any air movement and in doing so allows any oil carried with it to drain back. This area above the tapered plate has an air bleed to prevent any imbalance of air pressure if the oil level gets high enough to cover "all" the perforations. This can and in fact will happen from time to time and having this balance pipe prevents any "Burping" of oil from the tank. There is no metal gauze on any vent exit nor is it needed. Horizontally and dividing the upper and lower areas is a baffle plate that again is full off holes/perforations but this time are tapered downwards so as to break any oil surface tension and guide the air upwards and away from the bulk oil remaining below. It also restricts this oil body from moving away and concentrates it in the area ready to re-enter the engine oil delivery system. Then there is the breather pipes coming from the engine and these are carried into the very middle and top of the tank so as to remain clear and unobstructed no matter what the bike pitch. Getting all this to function across the whole operating range is the design intention and doing so in a compact package is where this tank shines whilst most others have problems. The tank I use and manufacture for others uses only 4-4.5 L where as RSC and any others I have seen uses 6 L or more. This means I am carrying less weight and the superior de-aeration results in better heat transfer and cooler oil. A win-win on all fronts.
So in summary, it is an effective an well proven design which is why others have requested these for their own projects.

Captain

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Hondo57
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Jun 20, 2014
Posts: 2245
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:23 am Reply with quote Back to top

Would Jjams bypass from the filter to the oil pan have the same type of effect?

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Captain
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Jan 02, 2009
Posts: 2250
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Hondo57 wrote:
Would Jjams bypass from the filter to the oil pan have the same type of effect?


Everything I have been talking about is about the removing the air from the oil in a Dry Sump set-up........... For a wet sump then yes it is having a similar effect as the air bleed kit is doing the same thing on a much smaller scale.
By the way....This is not Jim Sawtell's invention nor did he develop it so I take exception to anyone calling it "JJam's bypass"

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nlovie
Black CB750F
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Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 882
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:23 am Reply with quote Back to top

good stuff - a well thought out and designed part, i've done a lot of work with oil/gas separation albeit on a somewhat grander scale

not needing a gauze on the vent exit is a good sign of the system efficiency, your baffle plates are acting as the final coalescence plates

Cool I think Mr Dyson would approve Wink
 
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nathanhouse
Silver CB900F
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Joined: Oct 05, 2008
Posts: 1449
Location: Dover, NH

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:13 am Reply with quote Back to top

I'm familiar with dry sump oiling systems but what is needed to convert our bike? Does the pan have to be modified? Does the pump have to be modified? Need a tank obviously with line to and from. What else?
 
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genesound
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Posts: 11796
Location: Studio City, California

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:05 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
By the way....This is not Jim Sawtell's invention nor did he develop it so I take exception to anyone calling it "JJam's bypass"


I don't blame you one bit, and feel strongly that you should get the credit for all your developments,
even if it's just in conversation, but also as a product or procedure.

There is an institutional prevalence to do that kind of thing here, that is to lose the history and
give apparent credit for a solution only to the seller of the product. How quickly we forget.

Several items that are made and provided by various members here get referred to as that
member's device, when in fact they were introduced on here by Sonicrete years before
them being made by those people, and Bill was using and/or developing them a couple of decades
before that. It would seem to me that it would be courteous, gracious, and proper for those
people to go out of their way just the little bit to give credit where it's due.

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JJam
Red CB1100F
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Joined: Nov 08, 2009
Posts: 3810
Location: Sandy OR

PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:31 pm Reply with quote Back to top

nathanhouse wrote:
I'm familiar with dry sump oiling systems but what is needed to convert our bike? Does the pan have to be modified? Does the pump have to be modified? Need a tank obviously with line to and from. What else?


Nathan,
the dry sump is much more complicated then you would think.
Hereís a list of the parts that Victor and I with Brents help are having to make.

1. Shorter oil pan
2. Shorter oil pickup screen
3. Modified CB750K oil path body
4. Shorter Tensioner valve body for the primary tensioner.
5. Oil pump cover
6. Complete oil pumps as they are bigger
7. 90 degree oil line fittings that connect to the oil pump and cover
8. V&H oil tanks

Those are the parts needed to complete a dry sump along with -10AN oil lines and fittings. You just can not do this with a stock oil pump.

My machinist has a pc program that analysis oil pumps. He found that the OEM oil pumps can start cavitation at 10700RPM of engine rpm. This is now what I believe killed my 1st race engine. The engine had the capability to run at 13,000 rpm so I told Dennis to go ahead and run it to 12K. That was a huge mistake. Being green, I had never considered that an oil pump could cavitate.

The program that my machinist is using also showed us why the Deep sump engines that AHM was trying failed. It is best to have the oil pump as close to the pickup screen as possible. The shorter the distance from the screen to the pump is a big thing. The longer pickup screen used in the deep sump engine added too much resistance and would make the oil pump cavitate at even lower engine speeds.

We are building 10 dry sump kits and 3 of them are already spoken for. I will have more oil pumps built that will be sold to people who already have the kits but want a new oil pump.

Stay tuned because this is happening but at a slow speed due to money and we have to get this right the first time.

Peace, Jim
 
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nlovie
Black CB750F
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Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 882
Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 9:08 am Reply with quote Back to top

JJam wrote:

My machinist has a pc program that analysis oil pumps. He found that the OEM oil pumps can start cavitation at 10700RPM of engine rpm. This is now what I believe killed my 1st race engine. The engine had the capability to run at 13,000 rpm so I told Dennis to go ahead and run it to 12K. That was a huge mistake. Being green, I had never considered that an oil pump could cavitate.

Peace, Jim


can this be resolved by fitting a lowered gear drive to the pump ? - I seem to recall but don't know where or why that there is a way of reducing the pump drive gearing - you do get a bigger primary shaft gear but I also "think" you can fit a lower gear drive to the pump ( from the 750 or ?? - dunno )

I know Brent has the answer to this - i'm sure he has already posted it

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JJam
Red CB1100F
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Joined: Nov 08, 2009
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:02 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Yes is the answer. Brent has a lower ratio gear set for his high rpm engines. I bought one of the setups from him. Itís not a cheap fix. $400.00 for the pump gear on the shaft and the 15tooth primary gear. We are designing the new pumps so this is not needed. Thatís all I will say about the new pumps for now.

Peace, Jim
 
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