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Honda CB750/900/1100F SuperSport Website: SuperSport Forums


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1337
Black CB750F
Black CB750F



Joined: May 11, 2014
Posts: 985
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

When starting the 1100 after it sits for a few days, I always crank it with the kill switch off until the light goes out. May not be necessary, but it gives me some piece of mind that oil is everywhere and I won't starve any internals. It can take about 5-7 seconds of cranking before the light goes out. How long should it take for it to go out?

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Hondo57
CB1100F
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Joined: Jun 20, 2014
Posts: 2214
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:23 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Sounds about right. Does your 1100 start up quickly after sitting for days or weeks.? Usually I’ll need to start my 900 over and over for at least 20 seconds before it will even fire.

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1337
Black CB750F
Black CB750F



Joined: May 11, 2014
Posts: 985
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:36 pm Reply with quote Back to top

It takes a while if it's been a week or longer. I always do the kill switch deal if it's been a few days. If it's one day I don't bother and it starts right up. I have the stock fuel diaphragm in there and the gas can only get to the bowls while cranking.

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f4fast
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Joined: Jul 09, 2005
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Location: Long Island,N.Y.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:13 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Aren’t there pockets of oil in the cylinder head around the cams that sit there and don’t drain after shutoff?

So as you turn over, isn’t some oil splashing around the top end that was already up there? Unless it’s cold, of course. Then I doubt cranking moves much cold 15-40 or 20-50 anyway.

My 1100 always started immediately after sitting and my 750 always needed time as it runs on what sounds like 1 then 2 then
3 and 4 start firing.

I save wear and tear on started clutches by preemptively removing the air cleaner cover and pulling out the filter and squirting some ether into the air box..starts right up …then runs on 1 then 2 then 3 and 4 cylinders

Point is, like Hondo says…never starts instantly after two weeks anyway……..

If cold start lubrication is a concern, I think running thin oil 10-30 is the most important factor.

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1983 cb1100f (blue)
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1337
Black CB750F
Black CB750F



Joined: May 11, 2014
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Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:51 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I am more concerned with the main bearings not getting pressure at initial startup when cold. By cranking it over "killed" the oil gets up to pressure with no bearing load.

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f4fast
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:26 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Don’t you also have to consider the stock oil filter housing?

Doesn’t that housing trap an air pocket that compromises oil to the bearings as well?

Wasn’t there a specific mod to the housing to purge that air pocket?

Isn’t that air pocket a problem for oil supply to the bearings as well? Frothy bubbles in oil supply?

Not sure cranking fixes that…..

I’m just throwing some additional thoughts toward your premise….oil supply to bearings on cold startups.

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1983 cb1100f (blue)
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1337
Black CB750F
Black CB750F



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:07 pm Reply with quote Back to top

If there is an air pocket I don't see how it would affect anything. Air would be forced out by incoming oil.

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CBX-tras
Silver CB900F
Silver CB900F



Joined: Mar 12, 2012
Posts: 1521
Location: Clinton Twp, MI USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:56 pm Reply with quote Back to top

The upper third of the oil filter housing is always an air pocket but it doesn't effect the oil pressure at startup.

There are a couple of ways to eliminate this air if you want to prevent oil foaming (which isn't good).

My favorite way is to drill and tap a 5mm hole at the top of that cavity and insert a carb jet, no larger than 1mm (100 on the jet).

As oil is pressurized into that cavity, it will push the air out and after it's all gone, will squirt oil into the case, at the primary and A cam chain.

This method works for any Honda with the canister style filter, with or without the stock filter or spin-on. Without any welding or external plumbing.

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cntrhub
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Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 4:00 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I'm going to go with... you'd have to literally wipe dry the skirts, which are not, remove the cam/crank/rod caps and clean those of the oil film, which btw, just draining down the battery is about the only good thing is save the battery to last a little longer, but to waste that kind of starter motor parts spinning the carbon off those touch points, one way roller springs adding more collapse so as not to hold, hours of cranking, are seconds added not starting the bike right off. Want me to go on?

We on the same page yet?

Signed,
NOLTT (no one listens to turtle)
 
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1337
Black CB750F
Black CB750F



Joined: May 11, 2014
Posts: 985
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:00 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks cntrhub for that info. I may try to nstall that jet at the next oil change if I can figure out a way to keep the metal bits on the drill bit. Maybe a vacuum running alongside or heavy grease on the bit?

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orion
Twinstar
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Joined: Oct 03, 2012
Posts: 99
Location: texas

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:46 pm Reply with quote Back to top

This all seems to be unnecessary worrying. If there was a real problem, Honda would have issued a service bulletin
or recall.
 
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orion
Twinstar
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Joined: Oct 03, 2012
Posts: 99
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 5:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="CBX-tras"]The upper third of the oil filter housing is always an air pocket but it doesn't effect the oil pressure at startup.

There are a couple of ways to eliminate this air if you want to prevent oil foaming (which isn't good).

My favorite way is to drill and tap a 5mm hole at the top of that cavity and insert a carb jet, no larger than 1mm (100 on the jet).

As oil is pressurized into that cavity, it will push the air out and after it's all gone, will squirt oil into the case, at the primary and A cam chain.

This method works for any Honda with the canister style filter, with or without the stock filter or spin-on. Without any welding or external plumbing.[/quote]



How do you know how much, if any, air is trapped in the cannister ? is there a way to measure it ?
 
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swiftnick
Black CB900F
Black CB900F



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Farmington Hills, MI

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:22 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting discussion this. I wonder has anyone ever made a transparent filter housing to see if an air bubble is actually trapped there? I would think this same ‘issue’ should apply to every motor (car, bike, truck etc) that has an oil filter mounted on its side. I would also suspect there are many other areas in a motor where an air bubble could theoretically sit, oil cooler for example. However I also think that oil is quite thick and would quickly pick up any air and carry it through the system when the motor is first run following an oil change. Thereafter the oil system is relatively well sealed assuming the motor is not clapped out an air shouldn’t reenter the galleries etc. after shut down. Unless you start drilling holes that is, in which case it would seem your inviting air back in every time you stop the motor.

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1982 CB900FC (UK Version) 1 owner
1983 CB1100RD (Fastest, red and blue)
1975 CB400 four
2012 ST1300
1983 CX650 Turbo
1982 CX500 Turbo
1991 FJ1200
1976 CB750 Super Sport
1986 VFR700 
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BlueThunder
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 9182
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:27 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I think you guys are over thinking this. Just push the button and ride!

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... Brian
2014 CTX1300A - Black Thunder aka Predator
1980 CB750F - Blue Thunder
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AGDT
Twinstar
Twinstar



Joined: Sep 25, 2013
Posts: 62
Location: Tasmania

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:39 pm Reply with quote Back to top

You will give yourself an ulcer......just ride it

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swiftnick
Black CB900F
Black CB900F



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
Posts: 1649
Location: Farmington Hills, MI

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:55 pm Reply with quote Back to top

BlueThunder wrote:
I think you guys are over thinking this. Just push the button and ride!


Cant ride with the weather like it is at the moment, so have to enjoy other aspects of motor cycles.

_________________
1982 CB900FC (UK Version) 1 owner
1983 CB1100RD (Fastest, red and blue)
1975 CB400 four
2012 ST1300
1983 CX650 Turbo
1982 CX500 Turbo
1991 FJ1200
1976 CB750 Super Sport
1986 VFR700 
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CBX-tras
Silver CB900F
Silver CB900F



Joined: Mar 12, 2012
Posts: 1521
Location: Clinton Twp, MI USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:59 pm Reply with quote Back to top

My method should be done when the cases are apart and you can see what you're doing and clean any debris/shavings.

The upper third of the filter housing will have trapped air with no way to escape under normal operation.

Modification not necessary for daily drivers.

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cntrhub
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Joined: Nov 23, 2004
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Location: Kansas City, KA.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 5:43 pm Reply with quote Back to top

I suggest you do not reengineer whatever oil problem you think you have. Since 1969, till this day, you need to show me a bike failed changing a dry filter into a dry cartridge, and not one bike I know has failed due to an oil change.

Like you said, why contaminate a drill hole short of splitting the cases to grab those chips, it will eventually find one tiny one going past the screen, indent the gear surface/tip with the chip going thru both blades of the pump gears, fly out of the pump and up into the crank, out into some hole and hopefully it is thin enough to remain flat, slide out the side of the bearing insert, if not upright and score a groove in the bearing insert.

Oil is going to displace that air pocket into the filter, be coated with oil are the bubbles... and like the engineers did not think this out bubble wise?

Not only that, you can't shut that hole down so dirty [unfiltered] oil is being sent thru that hole and that's constant pressure times an hour.

So here is an hour's worth of oil out that jet hole and add the pressure behind it. How much unfiltered oil is that worth vs an air pocket that leaves within seconds thru the filter pleats.
 
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orion
Twinstar
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Joined: Oct 03, 2012
Posts: 99
Location: texas

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:01 pm Reply with quote Back to top

This is what cold unrideable weather does. It makes you think too much and then you start worrying
about the monster under the bed.

Prove that there's air trapped in the filter cannister and then I will start drilling holes. Maybe.
 
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BlueThunder
Red CB1100F
Red CB1100F



Joined: Jun 12, 2006
Posts: 9182
Location: Long Island, NY

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:45 pm Reply with quote Back to top

orion wrote:
This is what cold unrideable weather does. It makes you think too much and then you start worrying
about the monster under the bed.

Prove that there's air trapped in the filter cannister and then I will start drilling holes. Maybe.

Sometimes these discussions become so esoteric that it borders on the innate. Not that I don't enjoy them, they become hyper-theoretical without resolution or purpose. Cool

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2014 CTX1300A - Black Thunder aka Predator
1980 CB750F - Blue Thunder
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sillygoose
CB1100F
CB1100F



Joined: Oct 18, 2012
Posts: 2655
Location: Skaneateles, NY

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 6:50 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Weird, I thought they were inane but maybe there is some inbreeding going on here.

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swiftnick
Black CB900F
Black CB900F



Joined: Sep 01, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 7:58 pm Reply with quote Back to top

cntrhub wrote:
I suggest you do not reengineer whatever oil problem you think you have. Since 1969, till this day, you need to show me a bike failed changing a dry filter into a dry cartridge, and not one bike I know has failed due to an oil change.

Like you said, why contaminate a drill hole short of splitting the cases to grab those chips, it will eventually find one tiny one going past the screen, indent the gear surface/tip with the chip going thru both blades of the pump gears, fly out of the pump and up into the crank, out into some hole and hopefully it is thin enough to remain flat, slide out the side of the bearing insert, if not upright and score a groove in the bearing insert.

Oil is going to displace that air pocket into the filter, be coated with oil are the bubbles... and like the engineers did not think this out bubble wise?

Not only that, you can't shut that hole down so dirty [unfiltered] oil is being sent thru that hole and that's constant pressure times an hour.

So here is an hour's worth of oil out that jet hole and add the pressure behind it. How much unfiltered oil is that worth vs an air pocket that leaves within seconds thru the filter pleats.

If I have understood all you have written correctly, then I agree. 😁

_________________
1982 CB900FC (UK Version) 1 owner
1983 CB1100RD (Fastest, red and blue)
1975 CB400 four
2012 ST1300
1983 CX650 Turbo
1982 CX500 Turbo
1991 FJ1200
1976 CB750 Super Sport
1986 VFR700 
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1337
Black CB750F
Black CB750F



Joined: May 11, 2014
Posts: 985
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:11 pm Reply with quote Back to top

Not gonna do it. There is no way the air won't get pushed out of there.

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